Classy Chassy!

Murray Chass! Murray Chass! Murray Chass!

WILL NO AWARD MAKE GREINKE CRANKY?

I don't know about Greinke, but no award would make Rook cranky. No award for Greinke would make Rook very cranky. Even more cranky than a swanky Yankee who needs a hanky when he's crying and shaky.

Awesome headline. Awesome.

Zack Greinke pitched two seasons in one this season. If he had pitched only the better of the two, he would be a clear-cut winner of the American League Cy Young award. As it is, he will probably win the award anyway, but if I were voting - and I am not - I would vote for Felix Hernandez.

Fair enough. I mean, Felix did have the edge over Greinke in all of the 16 following categories:

ERA
ERA+
FIP
tRA
tRA+
K's
CG
ShO
WHIP
HR/9
K/BB
WHIP
K/9
RAR
WARP1
WAR

My bad. I screwed that up. Greinke beat Hernandez in all of those categories. Felix beat him in W/L and tied him in Intentional Walks. Oh and he beat him in Clutch Wins For A Competitive Team (C.W.F.A.C.T). Sadly, Greinke didn't compile any CWFACT's after May 7th. That's when the Royals realized they had no business leading the division by three games (18-11 record) and quickly returned to their familiar ways by going 47-86 over their last 133 games. Yeah, that's a .353 winning percentage. Can't get any CWFACT's like that!

Greinke was terrific this season, at times awesome, no question about it.

Wait for it...

In many of his games he almost seemed unhittable.

Keep waiting...

He won games on his own.

Almost there...

He had to because he pitches for the Kansas City Royals, one of the worst offensive teams in the major leagues.

Here it comes!

But then, the only worse offensive team is the one Hernandez pitches for, the Seattle Mariners.

Oh shit, son! You thought he was gonna change his mind to Greinke for a second, didn't ya? Wrong!

Fangraphs had the Royals as actually being a little worse offensively, but the Mariners did score fewer runs so I can see where Murray Man's coming from. Does it really matter that Hernandez played for an equally shitty offensive team? Felix had a run support of 5.6 per game and Greinke was at 4.8.

The answer is no, it does not matter.

But there are those two separate seasons Greinke pitched. In his 21 starts before May 31 and after Aug. 3 the 25-year-old right-hander had a 14-2 record and a 1.30 earned run average. Greinke, however, started 12 games from May 31 through Aug. 3, and the results weren’t as dominant as his 21-start performance.

Three stats. You are gonna give me three stats to work with here. ERA. Wins. Losses. Why even cite wins and losses? YOU LITERALLY JUST TALKED ABOUT HOW HE PITCHES FOR ONE OF THE WORST OFFENSES IN BASEBALL. Call me crazy, but I'm thinking that a pitcher's run support generally goes hand in hand with whether or not they win baseball games. Robin McLaurim Williams taught me that, and that man is anything but crazy.

In that stretch Greinke compiled a 2-6 record and had a 3.84 e.r.a. That’s not Cy Young material, and that’s what voters have to consider along with the results of Greinke’s 21 pre-May 31 and post-Aug. 3 starts and his over-all record: 16-8 and a league-leading 2.16 e.r.a.

3.84 ERA? That's the best you could do? Most of that came on the last day of your nitpicking sample size. He gave up six earned runs on August 3rd. That's not good, but it's also one freakin start. You also cited wins and losses again. That aint classy, Chassy. Okay, it's my turn... Felix Hernandez had a 4.13 ERA after his first nine starts to start the season. During that time he also put together a 1.34 WHIP. Now if that doesn't spell "Cy Young" I don't know what does. Booyah!

Bee-Tee-Dub, why is "e.r.a." not capitalized? That kinda bugs me. Whatever. Murray Chass is old.

In a different kind of separation Greinke pitched five complete games in his first 11 starts, then only one in his next 22 starts. Let’s not hold that against him, though.

Okay cool. So that means you're not going to include it in this article, right?

Hernandez has had only two complete games all season. On the other hand, Hernandez pitched a league-leading seven games without allowing a run in at least seven innings.

Yes, but Greinke threw more nine inning games without allowing a run. What are those called? Ah... I remember: shutouts. An actual statistic, not one you had your grandson look up on the computer thingy that Vorpies play with in their mother's basements.

Hernandez, a 23-year-old right-hander, did not survive the season without a “poor” period, but he limited the damage. In four games in May he lost three times, didn’t win once and had a 6.75 e.r.a. That, however, was the extent of his off-peak pitching.

I found a nine-start stretch that wasn't very spectacular either. Your grandson must think he's pretty slick, huh? Well I'm onto you Murray Chass III!!!

With a scheduled Sunday start against Texas and 17-game winner Scott Feldman remaining, Hernandez had 18 wins (only 5 losses), a .783 winning percentage, a 2.48 e.r.a., a .230 opponents batting average and 211 strikeouts in 232 innings. Those figures all placed in the top four in the A.L., a status unmatched by any other pitcher.

Cranky Greinke had 25 more strikeouts and a 2.16 ERA. Mister Chassy goes on to say more nonsense about wins and how amazing they are and how Hernandez could have ended up with 20 if he had a good offense behind him blah blah blah etc. etc. etc.

Alas, I am done with you, Chass. I will not take your sass, your tone is too crass. You tell time with an hourglass and watch baseball games with a spyglass. You, my dear friend, are an ass.

Rook is out!

60+ Saves = Best Pitcher in Baseball

The guys at FJM do a much better job of tearing Joe Morgan's chats apart than I could ever do, so I'll refrain from trying to tackle the whole thing. However, this single quote from today is just so good that it simply can't be overlooked.

Joe Morgan: But I do want to add that I believe K-Rod should win the American League Cy Young. He's going to have over 60 saves, which no pitcher in baseball has ever done. When you do something like that, it seperates you and makes you the best in the league that year.

Holy Shit. This is extremely short-sighted, even for Morgan. How can anyone, with a straight face, say that K-Rod deserves the Cy Young over Cliff Lee? K-Rod has a worse ERA, ERA+, WHIP, OPS Against, etc. and he's a RELIEVER! Cliff Lee has literally thrown three times the amount of innings that Rodriguez has, while being better in practically every facet of the game.

You know what separates you and makes you the best in the league, Joe? Being the best in the league. Saves do not accomplish that. By your childish, naive logic, Joe Borowski was the best reliever in baseball last year despite having a 1.34 WHIP and an ERA over five. K-Rod is not even the best closer in the American League. Joe Nathan, Mariano Rivera, and Joakim Soria (just to name a few) are each having seasons that are drastically superior.

I would much rather have Carlos Delgado win the MVP award than see Francisco Rodriguez win the Cy Young. I think that pretty much sums up the absurdity of the proposal right there.

Since We're on the Subject

It seems that recently there's been a lot of MVP/Cy Young award talk going on, which makes sense as the season starts winding down; so I thought it'd be good to just let it be known what a few of ATH's picks are at this point. I'm fairly confident we all share the same opinions (having discussed this quite a few times), but I'm sure anyone who disagrees will let it be known soon enough. Here we go!

A.L. Cy Young








Cliff Lee







N.L. Cy Young








Tim Lincecum









A.L. MVP








Cliff Lee (Again)









N.L. MVP







Albert Pujols










Now, how many of these guys will actually win is another question. At this point, I'd say Lee will most likely win the AL Cy Young, but have no chance at the MVP (although he should). Lincecum has a decent shot at the NL Cy Young, but if Webb has even an okay September with 3-4 more wins I could see the voters easily giving it to him. Pujols, even though this should be one of the easier decisions, is probably a close call. He doesn't seem to be getting nearly as much recognition as he should and if his team falls out of the playoff race I could easily see it going to a David Wright, Chase Utley, Ryan Braun, or even a *gasp* Carlos Delgado. None of them should win it, but I could see the voters going that way.

There really wasn't any point to this post other than attempting to lay our picks out for scrutiny just as much as others.

One more month!

Shouldn't Be THIS Debatable

If you want to be truly frustrated by the perception that has been created throughout sports today, all you have to do is look no further than today's ESPN.com chat entitled, That's Debatable: Who's the N.L. Cy Young?
Here's some of the questions/comments from the numerous participants of the chat. I should warn you, it's pretty bad, so if you already have stress-related problems I would suggest refraining from the following. If not, have at it!

Chris (Manchester NH): I am sorry but W-L and team W-L in games you pitch are the only important categories because the name of the game is winning. I do not care if Webb finishes with 4 or 5 more wins than anyone else in his league its simple he deserves it. you play the game to WIN not have good stats.

Like I said, this is some annoying shit. I'm pretty sure playing the game to win basically means playing at the top of your game. Some people do this much better than others. Should pitchers with a better offense really be rewarded? I mean, is there anyone who really believes that Bronson Arroyo (13 wins, 4.97 ERA) is having a better season than Johan Santana (12 wins, 2.71 ERA)?

Ramo - Buffalo, NY: A month ago, this was Webb's award to lose. And guess what? He's lost it. Stark is right on, Lincecum should win it. Like Cliff Lee, he has posted the best numbers despite playing on a weak team. But here's the caveat: CC should win MVP. Why is no one discussing that option? Who has been more valuable to their team?

I really liked this guy until that last part. It would be absolutely unfathomable for a pitcher to win the MVP and not win the Cy Young. If you are not valuable enough to win the award for being the best pitcher, then how the hell can you be valuable enough to win the award for being the best player? Unless maybe you were an overly awesome hitter or something, which Sabathia is not.

Kevin Kelly (Syracuse NY): Don't get me wrong, Lincecum is incredible and his pitching is a jaw dropper (look at his stats) but as for a NL Cy Young award, i believe an award like that can only be won so far is if the pitcher is helping the team to the playoffs. As of now it will either be Sabathia or Webb. They are both helping out and giving high hopes to bring there team to a playoff but out of those two great pitchers, it can only be determined who helps the team go to the playoffs. Someday, Lincecum will have his shot and he deserves it.

When did the Cy Young also become the MVP? Team success should not be factored in for the MVP, but it ESPECIALLY shouldn't be anywhere near a Cy Young argument.

Matt (Boston): I think sabermetric guys have gone too far in de-valuing wins. If you're bullpen is blowing games for you, finish it yourself. If the offense is having a bad day, you need to pick them up. Wins shouldn't be the end all stat, but it shouldn't be discounted like has become fashionable.

1. Whether or not you finish the game yourself is entirely dependent on the manager.
2. How do you "pick up the offense"? If your team scores no runs for you, then there is nothing you can do. A pitcher's limits only reach so far, hence the term "limits."
3. I disagree. I believe they should be discounted. I don't see a single instance where they could be a good tool for evaluating a pitcher's talent. It is a team-dependent stat that should not be used for individualistic purposes.

I'm going to post Jayson Stark's answer to this question as well. Throughout the chat most of his responses are actually pretty good, but this is an exception:

Jayson Stark: I think that's a fair point, Matt. To use the example made earlier, if a pitcher went 0-20, with a 1.00 ERA, I wouldn't vote for him for the Cy Young. But there's a big difference between that extreme and a guy who is 15-3 with lousy run support and bullpen support. I don't want to eliminate wins from the conversation. I just believe in keeping them in perspective. Isn't that reasonable?

If a starting pitcher ever finished the season with an ERA at 1.00 I don't think I could see any valid justification for not giving him the Cy Young. His adjusted ERA would be somewhere in the 300's probably, how could you penalize him for having some one of the worst strings of bad luck (wins) in the history of the game? Don't you think it was probably already miserable enough?

Doug (NY): Roy Oswalt for post-ASB Cy?

This one made me laugh. Does this guy just not watch baseball at all? I think that Sabathia guy pretty much has this fictional award on lock.

Thomas Arnold (Santa Barbara, CA): First of all, baseball people like to say that the MVP is for positon players, because pitchers have the Cy Young. So, shouldn't the Cy Young be the Most Valuable Pitcher?

Whoever these "baseball people" are, I hope they have a blog, article, or some other type of sports outlet for me to get a hold of. The guidelines are pretty clear, people shouldn't try to read so deep into what isn't there.

MC (CT): I think the only way CC can win the CY is for both Webb and Lincecum to have awful Spetembers (similar to CC's April, ironically) and him to have a ridiculous month like 5-0 1.00 ERA. That being said, I think Webb wins because the CY votes are too jaded by W-L and don't look at the numbers that matter.

Thank you, sir, for summing up the ridiculousness that ensues the BBWAA and for at least partially retaining my faith in today's society.